User talk:Babebeforewolves

PGE1, Art of Morrowind and other Concept Images

Hello! While I appreciate the thought, we actually don't have permission to upload and host these images. As far as we know, only TIL has permission to host the images, and Michael Kirkbride specifically took his works off tumblr to prevent people from using them without permission. Jeancey (talk) 03:18, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Many images were uploaded and you appear to have went on a deleting spree of sorts, including conflating my upload seemingly with the various ones of this individual. My question is, as an admin who is presumably taking official action in deleting all these images I’m uncomfortable with you using “As far as I know” for the basis of said deletions. I’m curious how you came to the conclusion that each specific image that was uploaded was deemed against our permission to upload, and furthermore I would like to know the source behind this statement “Michael Kirkbride specifically took his works off tumblr to prevent people from using them without permission.” Mk did indeed choose to gate his tumblr behind a password, although I’m aware of no source from Mk or anyone in his circle that stated he “removed” these images from his tumblr, that he did so with any agenda in mind, or that he put a password in place on it with the belief that all of the images that were readily available to the public for many years that were by that point already shared and hosted on many websites would be deemed not allowed to be shared or hosted. As an admin who took official action in this swift and vaguely explained deletion, I think it would be appropriate for you to provide further context and hopefully sources for the claims you provided in your deletion summaries, and if there turns out to be none, perhaps we can realize there was some conflation going on here and determine which images may be re uploaded. If there is some sort of source that validates each deletion I’m more than happy to accept our lack of ability to host them, I just would like to receive said sources. Dcking20 (talk) 03:47, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

On the subject of those images taken from MK's Tumblr -- sorry about that, that's my bad! However, please be aware that I was misled by there being so many of these images already uploaded on UESP and featured in articles. I took care only to upload those images which have already been published by Bethesda Softworks in the past, unlike (for example) File:MW-concept-Boethiah.jpg or File:LO-misc-Belharza Adult.jpg which have no connection to any official release yet sit happily on UESP pages. If UESP doesn't have permission to host these, I recommend applying the logic universally in case another dolt like me comes along and misunderstands.
Please also note that many of the images I uploaded were not from MK's Tumblr, but independently scanned from PGE1 and cleaned in Photoshop. Currently, UESP hosts many images scanned from PGE1 (although unlike mine they have been lifted directly from TIL), and I merely thought to upload those which were not yet on UESP. Are you able to clarify whether or not UESP may host images from PGE1? Babebeforewolves (talk) 04:56, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Ah so you scanned many from Pge1 directly? Well that was a perfectly valid(and helpful) thing to do and I know of zero ruling that has ever been reached on the wiki that such a thing cannot be done, what with us hosting hundreds of scanned images from various sources, including the books be it the Pges and cookbook etc. I also would not apologize for uploading concept art that was publicly shared and hosted for many years as you have pointed out, there is also great precedent for that on this wiki as well with no ruling to my knowledge that such a thing could not occur or that Mk ever claimed that the password that was put on his tumblr was put in place to disallow old publicly shared works of his to be shared any further (that sounds like a presumptuous guess of motivation to me) It appears readily apparent that the admin action that was taken perhaps was done in haste and that certainly not all, and perhaps none of the images had any basis whatsoever to be deleted. Still waiting on response from admin Dcking20 (talk) 13:59, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

So I explained this a bit on Discord, but the issue is that we only have permission really to host stuff posted online to ElderScrolls.com. Due to PGE and Art of Morrowind being published physically, we don't automatically have permission to host those images, in the same way we can't host all the images and recipes in the Elder Scrolls Cook Book, we have explicit specific permission to host the recipes and images that we do host. In addition, the MK specifically were on Tumblr, rather than the website we DID have permission for. Dcking this is why I removed your image as well, because it was also from MK. That being said, we've reached out for permission and I think the best option is for TIL to continue to host the images since they have actual permission, and then for us to include a link to TIL on this page that essentially says "For more concept art, please see the TIL gallery".

@Dcking Just because something is publicly available, like a book, doesn't mean that we can post them online. We exist for much of our content in a state of permission with Bethesda's blessing. If anything changed that relationship, significant parts of the wiki could theoretically be subject to removal. Due to this, we generally need to be extra careful with any content that originated physically, hence why we've erred on the side of caution here. This wasn't JUST me involved in this decision to delete, and we reached out before doing do to ask about permission and learned only TIL had permission. Just because you don't see the discussions publicly doesn't mean they don't happen, and not everything is a rash overreaction or a presumption. Jeancey (talk) 18:54, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

After discussion the outcome here is slightly changed, and it will require some work. It'll be okay to use images that were publicly available (either posted to MK's tumblr or on the official forums), however we need to make sure to get the copyright correct on these images. Images that were created for Bethesda (such as those present in physical books like the PGE or Art of Morrowind, or published on web pages) are copyright to Bethesda. The images that are solely from MK, however, aren't owned by Bethesda, and need to be copyright marked accordingly. I believe "Permission from the artist/original creator" ({{usedwithpermission}} is the correct template for those.

In addition, any images that were solely scanned from the physical book and weren't ever available online will need to be removed, as we don't have explicit permission to host those at this time. This would include images like this one. Until we come up with a list of images that fall into each category, we probably shouldn't undelete them. Once we identify which ones we are now allowed to have, then we can restore those images with the correct copyright. The following images are all personal works of MK and need their templates changed: File:LO-misc-Belharza_Child.jpg, File:LO-misc-Belharza_Adult.jpg, File:LO-misc-Reman_Cyrodiil.jpg, File:LO-misc-The_Fall_of_Ald'ruhn.jpg, File:LO-misc-Foul_Murder.png This will all take some time, and I appreciate everyone's reasonableness while we work this out!!! Jeancey (talk) 20:36, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you Jeancey, I appreciate your time in looking at this. For clarification, do I understand correctly that:

• Any images that were made available digitally, either by Kirkbride or Bethesda/Zenimax, are permitted even if they were previously published in print
  • Those images which were created for Bethesda are copyright to Bethesda (Which copyright template to use here? The language in {{esimage}} doesn't quite apply)
  • Those images which Kirkbride did not create for Bethesda, UESP has received permission from him to use - {{usedwithpermission}}
• Any images that were published in print, but not made available digitally anywhere by Kirkbride or Bethesda, are not permitted

Is this correct? Babebeforewolves (talk) 21:58, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

(←) As of right now, that is correct. The {{esimage}} is the correct one, the key here being that they were published online. We're still working on the official permission to use his own works that he did not create for Bethesda, so right now we just need to identify which ones apply to that scenario, just in case there is a specific image he doesn't want used or something, we have a list of which ones are covered, if that makes sense. Jeancey (talk) 22:07, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I suppose my point of concern is that in the scenario of those put online by Kirkbride, these were on his personal Tumblr or his/his wife's website, so the language of "websites created and owned by Bethesda Softworks" is not altogether true. But then the same could be said of The Dragon's Eyrie, for instance. Babebeforewolves (talk) 22:16, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Cookie

You have been given a cookie! Your dedication and diligence to the wiki has not gone unnoticed. A user has seen the progress you've made, and has given you a cookie because of it. Good work! The user had the following to say: Great, great work on General:Kurt Kuhlmann! The developer pages have been lacking for a while; Kurt especially deserved a more robust page. I hope the citations catch on --- they're not just for Lore!

LudwigC (talk) 00:18, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

That's very kind, thank you. I hope to build out some developer pages a little more and it just happened that I finished Kurt's first. I think citations are essential for General (ie. real life) pages, so it would be wonderful to see more of them. I appreciate the kudos :)

And thanks for keeping the citations going with your edit. I hope you don't mind, but I removed a couple texts for which we don't have concrete confirmation of Kurt's involvement. Kirkbride also posted under the Hasphat name back in the day, and then the Sermon Zero Affair was a forum thread rather than a text itself (and we'll be here a long time if we're counting those as texts!) Babebeforewolves (talk) 08:15, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

No worries. I think your reasoning is good, at least as far as posts not being considered texts (though it'd be nice to explicitly link General:Kurt Kuhlmann's Posts somewhere in the body).

I didn't know Kirkbride also posted under the name of Hasphat. I know Kirkbride and Kuhlmann shared Fal Droon on the forums (and in-game; "Lunar Lorkhan" is Kirkbride's where "Dragon Break" is Kuhlmann's), but at least TIL seems to say with certainty that Hasphat Antabolis is specifically Kuhlmann's account. If this is true, then while I agree HA forum posts wouldn't qualify as texts, perhaps HA's participation in Skeleton Man could count? (If HA was indeed also used by MK, though, then I agree it wouldn't be a certain enough contribution to put on the Kurt page.) LudwigC (talk) 20:40, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply—I added a link to Kurt's posts to the page per your suggestion. As for the Hasphat moniker, Benefactor recently published the certifiable instance of MK using it (and Kurt logging in himself to react to that), but I feel that's not the only instance—the banter in this thread, for example, also seems clopped out by elk hooves. They evidently shared it during this period, which is what leaves room for doubt in me about Skeleton Man. Kurt had long since left Bethesda by the time of that interview... of course, he'd long since left Bethesda while using the Hasphat name of the forums, too, but that's a shade more casual than a bonafide promo piece. Babebeforewolves (talk) 09:48, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Ha, yes! I thought of you as soon as I saw that thread (and then afterward when you notified me). Very interesting indeed, I really had no idea they ever shared Hasphat until I read that. I will definitely concede then that it's not certain enough to put on a wiki that any isolated Hasphat post of this era is Kurt's (though usually you can make an educated guess on the style, that's not enough).

Out of curiosity, had Kirkbride not also left Bethesda by the time of Skeleton Man? He seems to have done so by the time of the Masser and Secunda thread, which is fairly close in time to the interview. Bethesda may have brought him them back in as a "contractor" for that specific piece, or it could have been written before he left -- and I would then wonder if such was also the case for Kurt. LudwigC (talk) 21:04, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Skeleton Man was in February 1999 by TIL's reckoning, and Masser and Secunda was in May 2000—Kirkbride having left in April 2000, and Kuhlmann in January 1998. So only Kirkbride was around for Skeleton Man, and both had left by the time of Masser and Secunda. Incidentally, at the time of that thread, Kirkbride was working alongside Ted in the same company, so presumably they were having a good laugh about it! Babebeforewolves (talk) 08:29, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

I just love the work the work you are doing!

Hey!! Just want to thank you for your work!!! I just recently became interesed in Michael Kirkbride's work after (finally) starting to play Morrowind and realized the polyphonic nature of the lore in that game. It's kind of a post-history thingy that I really love about FromSoft games and some of my favorite authors (Borges, Pynchon, Navokov, Danielewski, Eco, etc). The nuanced perspective of history and the nature of truth really borrow from the ethos of post-modern literature.

So I just started reading the Pocket Guide to the Empire from a scan, and really loving both the artwork and writing. Kinda sad that I can't really see much of it because of the low res. So I started reading it in UESP, and just imagine my surprise when I find your high res scans!!!

I'm a lit student, so basically, you really made my life a lot richer with your work!

TL;DR You're great.

lili_t 21:19, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind message! I'm not sure I could call it "work" exactly, but I'm really chuffed if anything I did helped someone's love for Tamriel.

The subjectivity of truth, and how that was employed not only as a worldbuilding device but a narrative device (in a medium where we, the reader, are also a character), is a bunch of fun and a real strength of that golden age of TES. I never did pick up the FromSoft games (too hard) but maybe I should look into it... Babebeforewolves (talk) 07:03, 21 April 2023 (UTC)