Lore talk:Slavery

Necessary?

Oookay.... this way round is better than the alternative (for those that weren't watching, the MW article was originally transcluded here) but I'm not convinced that this is necessary. All that's on the page so far is MW-specific and so should remain confined to the MW-space. I can't speak for the earlier games but OB only added rumours to the lore on the matter. In that light, is it really necessary for a TAM article on this? –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 17:56, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

Well, as the creator, I'd say the criteria for Tamriel inclusion are met. If you read the main text, Slavery is mentioned in Books, it affects other regions and races, and there is conflicting position of the Imperial Cult. Slavery is historically and specifically been mentioned in the Armistice, many Morrowind and Vvardenfell document like PGE mentions the exception, so I'd say the article has a firm place in the Lore. That being said, Tamriel namespace is so fuzzy, I'd like to hear some clear arguments and guidelines. Further research will likely find more that can be included.

Quick list:

Books that talk about slavery: Lore:A Dance in Fire, Chapter 3, Lore:Blasphemous Revenants, Lore:King Edward, Part VII, Lore:King Edward, Part X, Lore:Last Scabbard of Akrash, Lore:The Marksmanship Lesson, Lore:Battle of Sancre Tor, Lore:The Argonian Account, Book 4, Lore:The Eastern Provinces, Lore:The Last King of the Ayleids

Tamriel Articles mentioning slavery: Lore:Argonian, Lore:Dunmer, Lore:Black Marsh, Lore:Morrowind, all house articles, Oblivion:Malacath

Cheers, Benould^•T•C 18:09, 19 May 2008 (EDT)

Yes, I can use the search function too, but by the same criteria I could create a Tamriel:Sport article by mentioning The Book of Daedra and Words and Philosophy. Most of the books you list only mention slavery in passing, and the ones that go into detail were all introduced in Morrowind. The Imperial Cult is specific to Morrowind. It's true that it affects other provinces but the Tamriel NS isn't supposed to be Wikipedia, it's supposed to be for information relating to several games. If people want to know what slavery is they can look elsewhere. If they want to know about slavery in Morrowind, in which game it's quite important, they can look at MW:Slavery, and if they want to know how slavery affects other games, the phrase "It doesn't" springs to mind.

You may have noticed several Tamriel pages being deleted because they have no relevance outside Daggerfall. Certainly the cities and provinces described would be relevant in the real world; people live there, they export items and are quite possibly great tourist destinations, but if they're not mentioned outside DF then there's no need for them to be mentioned in Tamriel. Slavery is mentioned outside MW, but the only game in which anything is affected by it is MW. That's why I don't think this article is necessary. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 01:02, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Don't get your argument about sports, that'd be a Reach. All you have to check is the Lore:Cyrodiil article: "The ancient Nedic, spreading south from Skyrim, became the slave labor for their ambitions, centered around the White Gold Tower." [1] One of the most important events of Cyrodilic history is the slave rebellion of the 242nd year of the First Era. The men and mer had been fighting in Skyrim for quite a while, however, this revolt, led by Alessia would represent a big win for men. "The heart of Tamriel was going to belong to these former slaves, present day Cyrodilics or Imperials, forever more."[1] In an alliance with Skyrim, the Alessian Empire would push to the west towards High Rock, which, at the time, was the land of the Direnni. Another big change was present at this time, as described in A Pocket Guide to the Empire."

All about slavery. I can do that with other articles. At this point, I'd like a second opinion, maybe I just don't get the Tamriel NS. I thought it is about, you know, Lore? If I am out for lunch, go ahead and prod it. --Benould^•T•C 01:34, 20 May 2008 (EDT)

Dwarven Slavery

Should the article be updated to include that the Dwemer used the Falmer as slaves? and then, later, the Falmer also kept slaves? Vos 22:39, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. You can add it to the cleanup tag if you want. —Legoless 22:40, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Cheers Legoless. Vos 22:54, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Fourth Era

I'm not sure, but should this section be updated with information about slavery in the fourth era that we know? Right now it seems like its talking about the present state as the third era (TES 3). I think we know enough to at least write a small paragraph about the Argonian uprisings in Morrowind. Hope 20:09, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

That's what the cleanup tag is there for. —Legoless 23:31, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Deletion?

I was thinking about cleaning up this article, but what's the point? To reiterate some of the concerns in the conversation above, I don't think this article is necessary and it sets a bad precedent just by being here. We don't have an article on taxes, or civil liberties, or death, or the Tamrielic economy. I think we should be sticking to articles which can have a tangible focus - a person, a place, an organization, an event, etc. Stretching that focus out to a concept like what has been done here with slavery would vastly expand the number of articles we "should" have while providing very marginal edification for readers.

Further, concept-focused articles will often have an enormous scope, which means we would be spending enormous amounts of time researching, writing, and maintaining all of this information for insubstantial gain. Try doing a search here for "slave", and imagine combing through and analyzing all that data. It's just not practical. It might be different if a concept was some strange TES invention, but the real-world concept of slavery and the one held in TES are fundamentally the same. There's no need for us to reinvent the wheel on this. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 00:14, 15 March 2013 (GMT)

How about we straight copy the article to the morrowind namespace, and retool it to deal specifically with slavery in morrowind, since it is such a major part of the game. Would that work? Jeancey (talk) 00:15, 15 March 2013 (GMT)

I'm not necessarily advocating the deletion of Morrowind:Slavery, so I have no issue with someone retooling it. But I'm moving this to the deletion review page. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 00:19, 15 March 2013 (GMT)

When did slavery began

What is the earliest area in Tamriel that slavery began and who enslaved who. Were was the first slave markets and were the slaves used for in labor? — Unsigned comment by MrJunky (talk • contribs) at 19:20 on 3 July 2015 (GMT)

The Altmer traditionally enslave goblin-ken, and Altmeri culture is often obsessed with preserving the Dawn Era customs of the Aldmer. If that's the case, slavery has been going on since time immemorial. —Legoless (talk) 19:28, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

What year did the Dark Elves start enslaving Argonians and Khajiits? Is there a specific date for these events? I know it in the 2E if not sooner since it been mentioned in Elder Scrolls Online. — Unsigned comment by MrJunky (talk • contribs) at 17:54 on 7 July 2015 (GMT)

No dates given. —Legoless (talk) 17:56, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Restored

I've restored this page and moved the content from the userfied version to here. I think it's clear that consensus on what belongs in lorespace has changed since the original deletion review back in 2013. If others disagree, we can have another deletion discussion, but I think the fact that the userfied page has seen considerable expansion and editor attention in the preceding years is a strong indication that current sentiment is the opposite. —⁠Legoless (talk) 14:26, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Falmer slavery?

I see in the cleanup tag that the Falmer used slaves. Where is this from? I can't find any mention of pre-Night of Tears Snow Elven civilization having slaves, nor any from the Falmer post-Dwarven slavery. There's the Falmer Servants, but servants aren't slaves, and there doesn't seem to be anything that suggests that they are. Mindtrait0r (talk) 20:52, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Those people in the Silent City are definitely enslaved. Surface dwellers do not have dealings with the Corrupted and cannot possibly be there by choice. Per The Falmer: A Study, they have long been accused of "steal[ing] sleeping babes from their cribs". —⁠Legoless (talk) 21:48, 9 July 2023 (UTC)