Lore talk:Breton

Hands

Do Bretons really have such huge hands? — Unsigned comment by 84.67.175.26 (talk) at 00:30 on 4 November 2006

I am wondering basically the same thing because of the illustration on the page. Is there supposed to be something unusual about Bretons' hands which has just never been demonstrated in character models before? I'm working on this page trying to write an "appearance" section, and all I have right now is to point out their: eyebrows, ears, cheekbones, and pale skin.Minor Edits 03:35, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

This is an old question but I'd like to add that the general appearances Bretons have had, in every game, tend to change. In Arena and Daggerfall (and maybe Battlespire), Bretons are muscular, tan, and very manly (basically they appear very Nordic, but with dark or red hair). In Morrowind, they appear to be one of the less physically imposing races (they always kinda struck me as wimpy in that game), though they're finally pale. :p I have no knowledge of Oblivion and, in Skyrim, it appears that they are back to looking like dark-haired Nords again. When it comes to the Elvish features...I really haven't seen a Breton that appeared Elvish, except for maybe one of the male faces in Daggerfall. Mordack 04:34, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Half-Elves

1/2= more human than elf

wrong it would be more correct ot say that they are part elf — Unsigned comment by 68.61.76.75 (talk) at 21:24 on 27 November 2006

Well... technically they could be half elven... Bretons came from Nedic women being taken as concubines for Aldmer... and in Tamriel.. race comes from the mother — Unsigned comment by 139.55.49.205 (talk) at 07:17 on 14 July 2008

Of course, cross an elf and a man and you get nothing close to a Breton. — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk) at 02:43 on 26 July 2008

We have no way of knowing what % of elf and what % of human they are, best to say Part Human and Part Elf Talamare 02:51, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

This has been addressed in the Appearance section of the article. Like mentioned in The Bretons: Mongrels or Paragons?, the earliest Bretons are the Half Elves (or Manmer in other sources), and were more Elven in appearance. Legacy of the Bretons delves into this, such as modern druids still referring to themselves as Manmer in the Wyrd and Druid book and the Draoife Storystone. There's also Sir Stefan Mornard coming to terms with his half elven identity, and Modern Day Bretons: Man or Mer? arguing that Breton's elven blood is still prominent. Zebendal (talk) 00:58, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

The Elder Scrolls Arena

Should I add a link to The Elder Scrolls Arena's race page in the See Also section? Bryanmichael11 23:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why not. And if you feel like something should be edited on any page, you don't always have to ask for permission ;) –Elliot ^talk 23:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay. Thanks. Bryanmichael11 22:53, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Necessary?

Is this page necessary? All of the information here is on the Oblivion and Morrowind pages (word for word)— Unsigned comment by 212.159.115.7 (talk) on 05 November 2010

Actually, the words you are seeing on those other pages are being drawn from this one. --Brf 17:42, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Druids of Galen

When choosing to play as a Breton in Arena, a brief infobox pops up, saying: "Know ye this also: Thy race is descended from the ancient Druids of Galen, quick witted and strong in the mystical arts. Thy folk are crafty and intelligent, a learned people who use their gifts to guide others to enlightenment..."

Is it relevant that they apparently are somehow related to an unknown group called the Druids of Galen? Worthy of being added to the Lore page?

Depends on how you do it. It'll have to be referenced, wedged into an appropriate spot on the page, it shouldn't introduce any game references into the text of the page, and it shouldn't be stated as a fact (so start the sentence with "it is said that ... ", "some claim that ... ", you get the idea). And be careful, because trying to revise or add anything to these race lore pages is soul-crushing. Have fun! Minor Edits 00:08, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Resolved and fully integrated to Breton's origin. Zebendal (talk) 00:58, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Aldmer and Atmorans make up Bretons.

Per the revert by Jeancey. The statement on the page: "Aldmeri-Nedic Manmer of the Merethic Era and are now the inhabitants of the province of High Rock" - The source of this claim is Lore:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/High Rock - however it doesn't actually mention Nedes or Nedic anywhere. In fact, it instead mentions this line:

"...the Nords reasoned that the "Manmeri" beyond the Reach were, in fact, descended from human slaves taken during the Elven destruction of Saarthal."

These slaves were Atmorans, absolutely no doubt. Secondly, the book that does mention a Nedic connection is Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/All_the_Eras_of_Man - specifically:

"The original Nedics of Skyrim are now known as the Nords. The ones who crossed west to High Rock, as we have said, interbred with the Aldmer there to create the Bretons"

Of course this is a classic example of the scholarly confusion that exists with the word "Nede". Why? because the same book makes the statement: "The Nedic people meanwhile came from the frozen land of Atmora to the north" - this means the scholar is refering to the Atmorans as Nedes. In common parlace (and all over this wiki), Nedes are what we call the First Era tribes of Cyrod, not the Atmorans. So even if they are specifically stated as Nedic/Aldmer in the book, it's not accurate, because it suggests Bretons are of tribal Cyrodillic origin. --Jimeee (talk) 23:07, 30 May 2013 (GMT)

Actually, I took it from the third era version, which states, unequivically, "The ones who stayed in Summerset became known as the Altmer; in Valenwood, Bosmer; in Morrowind, Chimer and Dwemer; in Cyrodiil, Ayleid; and in High Rock, a mix between Nedic and Aldmer birthed the Bretons." That's why I reverted it, because it is quite clear about it. Jeancey (talk) 17:29, 31 May 2013 (GMT)

I would stick to describing them as Nedic. "Nedic" often seems to be used very liberally to refer to early humans in general, and it could implicitly include Atmorans. Could be wrong, but that's the impression I've gotten. Also, the line "the Nords reasoned that..." tells us only that, what the early Nords reasoned; it doesn't claim to speak to the truth of the matter. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 18:16, 31 May 2013 (GMT)

@Jeancey - Yes, Nedics are mentioned in the line "The ones who stayed in Summerset became known as the Altmer; in Valenwood, Bosmer; in Morrowind, Chimer and Dwemer; in Cyrodiil, Ayleid; and in High Rock, a mix between Nedic and Aldmer birthed the Bretons." - but you are completely forgetting the same book also mentions "The Nedic people meanwhile came from the frozen land of Atmora" - If we used Nede as a catch all for all early humans on the wiki then this wouldn't be a problem, but we don't - so this is inconsistent.

@Minor Edits: Nordic is more accurate that Nedic. While agree the word Nedic may have been used to refer to early humans in older texts, it's no longer the case - the Lore:Nede article explains it better that I can. The pocket guides are full of inconsistencies and retcons - you know this more than anyone. I'm more concerned about consistency than being right - Nede is being used to refer to different things on the wiki, and it's not only confusing, but its part of the reason why people still confuse Nede and Atmoran and use the word interchangeably. To be honest, its becoming increasingly frustrating to see certain things implied or infered on some lore pages - but on other pages points are dismissed as not explicit enough or from a dubious source - if we play that game ME, then the entire set of pocket guides should be brought into question, because we all know that they are Imperial propaganda. Or how about the supposed fact that Sovngarde is located within Aetherius? The only source that backs up this claim is also dubious - the player's journal in Skyrim. --Jimeee (talk) 19:39, 31 May 2013 (GMT)

The Nede article looks like it might need some work to me. A lot of assertions, far too few references. We'll cross that bridge when come to it. Our goal here to stick to the source material, and we do the best with what we're given. Any inferences we make should be ironclad. I don't see how Nordic is more accurate than Nedic when we have two sources using the term Nedic for the Bretons' human ancestry and zero using the term Nordic or Atmoran. Consistency across the wiki is, of course, very important. Point out inconsistencies, and we'll try to resolve them. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 19:57, 31 May 2013 (GMT)

Nedes aren't from tamriel, they were from atmora. There were two main waves of migration, the first became the nedes, the second became nords. The nedes bred with the aldmer to create Bretons prior to the second wave of migration that brought the nords. Thus, simply saying that aldmer bred with atmorans is like saying Europeans breeding with Asians is really just Africans breeding with africans because we are all from africa. Once they got to tamriel and started to breed there, they were no longer atmorans. Thus, nedes is the specific term, even though they came originally from atmora. Jeancey (talk) 20:00, 31 May 2013 (GMT)

(edit conflict) Well said. Just to reiterate less eloquently: keep in mind that we're talking about the Bretons here; they're our focus. Discussion on the ancestry of the Nedes themselves is more relevant to the Nede page than it is here. Minor Edits^{Threats•Evidence} 20:04, 31 May 2013 (GMT)

"There were two main waves of migration, the first became the nedes, the second became nords." - Not how I read it. The tribes of Cyrod did not originate from Atmora. Men were created at the throat of the world. Those men that were displaced to Atmora after the Dawn Era wars became Atmorans, who eventually returned. Those that remained on Cyrod after the war became the Nedic tribes.--Jimeee (talk) 20:13, 31 May 2013 (GMT)

Really? "It is generally understood that neither the proto-elves, or Aldmer, nor the proto-men, or Nedics, lived in Tamriel during the earliest years of creation. The Hist trees of Black Marsh, most say, were the original life forms on our continent, followed by the progenitors of the modern Khajiit, the modern Argonian, the modern Sload, the modern Dreugh, and other "beast folk," some now gone our land, some so shy or rare that their presence is seldom detected." It clearly states that the nedic people were not FROM tamriel, but arrived there later. It later goes on to say that they came FROM atmora: "The Nedic people meanwhile came from the frozen land of Atmora to the north to what is today Skyrim." There is no ambiguity here. It very clearly states that they were from atmora. In the High Rock article, it states that when the Nords moved into High Rock, they attacked what they THOUGHT were elves, but it turns out they were half elf, half human, what we know today as bretons. Thus, bretons were here prior to the nords, and they were half nedic half aldmer, and the nedic half came, at some point, from atmora. Jeancey (talk) 20:18, 31 May 2013 (GMT)

Lifespan

Does anyone know how long Bretons tend to live? I know that elves tend to live very long and humans die relatively early. But when I was reading the Brief History of the Empire, the historian wrote that Cassynder Septim ascended to the throne middle aged and the next sentence goes: "Only half Elven, he aged like a Breton." Do Bretons live longer than the other races of men and have there been any accounts of Bretons living super long via the use of magic like many Dunmer do? — Unsigned comment by 71.201.38.163 (talk) at 21:27 on 15 August 2013

I'm not an expert by any means, but since Bretons are the result of an intermixing of Elvish and Human races, I would be surprised if they didn't have a longer life span than most humans. I haven't seen any accounts of Bretons using magic to lengthen their lifespan. That isn't very common even among the Dunmer as far as I know (Dumner can naturally live for at least 1000 years). In Morrowind, one of the oldest characters in the game, Dratha, was said to be kept alive by necromancy. If that's the only viable way to extend the lifespan of a person, I doubt there are many examples. --Ratwar (talk) 12:14, 17 August 2013 (GMT)

Breton lifespans are talked about in Loremaster's Archive - House Telvanni. In it, Divayth Fyr states "Breton mages burn brightly but briefly, I suppose, a sad commentary on the lifespan your uncaring gods have gifted your people." Additionally, people bring up "Aged like a Breton" from Lore:Brief History of the Empire v 2, the reason being that Cassynder did not inherit the elven longevity of his mother and instead inherited the shorter Breton lifespan from his human father. Zebendal (talk) 01:06, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Breton takeover after Direnni downfall

Though some Bretonic sources speak of the Bretons fabricating a story of noble resistance, I do not think it is fair to ignore that the Bretons were a), given more control over time by the Direnni, as according to The Bretons: Mongrels or Paragons? — Phrastus of Elinhir and b), allowed the Direnni to retain control of Balfiera A Warning to the Aldmeri Dominion — Erystera Ligen.

One might argue that the latter is propaganda, as it is written by the Daggerfall Covenant during the Alliance War, but if PGE 1st ed. is going to be quoted as a legitimate source, then I believe it is fair to include biased information from the other side of the aisle, so as to round off the history. BlissfulDelusions (talk) 21:18, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate your dedication to the use of reliable sources! The article does mention that Bretons were given more control over High Rock by Clan Direnni (using the source you mentioned): As the Direnni Hegemony expanded geographically, the elves, who were few in number, passed increasing powers of administration to the Breton caste. Unfortunately, you happened to add in an additional source about the Elves being allowed to remain on Balfiera just before I emptied my sandbox out onto this page, so that change got rolled over. I'll go ahead and add it back in. -MolagBallet (talk) 02:00, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Addendum: it looks like you've already added the source back in; wanted to acknowledge it here because I mentioned I would add it back in if it wasn't present already -MolagBallet (talk) 02:10, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Indeed! I was a bit bothered to see some of the stuff I added removed, but not to worry, I'll pour over the pages and what other sources I can find, and see if there's anything else to add :) BlissfulDelusions (talk) 06:33, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

High Rock Expansion During Direnni Hegemony

The Book Once describes the Bretons under Ryan Direnni controlling "all the land" as far east as Elinhir and Markarth. I am uncertain of the lore on this point, but do you think it could be worked into the article? I think it is relevant to the Bretons and their history, especially that bit about the Direnni starting the tradition of sacking Orsinium. --BlissfulDelusions (talk) 01:59, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

That is pretty significant. I would do it myself but I am not too knowledgeable about this era. Side note to anyone that will edit it in, Ryan is a typo, and it is meant to say Ryain Direnni.Zebendal (talk) 05:43, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Adendum, it seems the part about the Direnni sacking Orsinium has already been added, but I can add the part about Elinhir and Markarth being under Direnni control. I might even revisit Craglorn. IIRC, there are some bits of lore there, on Altmeri settlements. --BlissfulDelusions (talk) 06:15, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Breton Opposition to Death Penalty?

What I am going to propose is composed of circumstantial evidence, but I thought it might be worth it to bring up.

In Elder Scrolls Online, we rarely every see capital punishment used, let alone suggested in High Rock. Of course, there are examples, but given the cirucmstances of those examples, I think the case for my proposition has standing.

Naturally, in Stormhaven there is a guillotine built in Wayrest, but Captain Ernele expresses that the guillotine is mostly to serve as a deterrent. The player has the option to say it's a little excessive, but the captain politey disagrees. The guillotine is implied to have been used, or be ready to be used by the NPCs working on it, such as Treves Penot, but as soon as the zone questline is over, Emeric is quick to order the guillotine to be dismantled. The NPCs building the guillotine then express relief at the king's change of mind, calling public execution a wrong.

After being possessed by the Omen of Fear, Duke Nathaniel says that Sir Hughes ASKED to be executed, to restore the honor of the knights of flame. He counsels the player, and if spared, Duke Nathaniel says that he is exiled from Alcaire, stripped of knighthood, and may not return upon penalty of death, which to me implies that exile/imprisonment may be a more common form of punishment.

After Duke Renchant's betrayal of Evermore is exposed, Queen Arzhela will execute him if told to decide his fate, but if he is spared, the player and Queen Arzhela will later reflect that killing Renchant would have been wrong.

In all other cases where criminals were targeted, they died trying to fight the player, from what I can remember. I cannot recall a single other instance in ESO's High Rock where a character was captured, and then executed.

What are your thoughts on this? Is the case for this sound? Can any of you recall another instance where someone was captured and later executed, in High Rock or the Covenant storyline at large?

--BlissfulDelusions (talk) 04:01, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

While this is an interesting look at things, this falls under no original research. --AKB ^{Talk Cont Mail} 04:18, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Executions for certain things, is a thing even with Bretons, they are not naturally against it and no lore indication says that at all. In fact being put to the death I can see being very common place for certain crimes. Emeric had the guillotine built and it likely was going to see actual use when it came to captured cultists. But after he suffered at the hands of Vaermina under threat of dying from the guillotine he ordered constructed He had it torn down, as he couldn't stand it being there so that made him have a real change of heart. There is no lore evidence to suggest they are against the death penalty. Even then there would have to be actual sources of info saying that there is in order for that to be put down on the page. So there really isn't much to this in my opinion to suggest making a note or adding it into the page itself. So there has to be some backing and this evidence is really weak as I don't even see it as being circumstantial to really be honest with you and Akb is right about that this would fall under Original research. TheVampKnight (talk) 04:25, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems this has been confirmed wrong. BlissfulDelusions (talk) 16:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Sponsorships for Breton children

Do we have any canon information on this? BlissfulDelusions (talk) 16:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Source is Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/High Rock Zebendal (talk) 01:06, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Not A Hybrid Race

This isn't how 'race' works in Elder Scrolls. Children inherit the race of their mother. There is no such thing as a 'hybrid race' as would imagine such a thing in the Elder Scrolls world. Bretons are just humans. They're distinguished from Imperials and Nords largely through culture, lifestyle and politics. — Unsigned comment by 92.5.100.233 (talk) at 19:49 on 25 May 2023

While I agree that the term "hybrid race" has an abrasive sound to our ear, and also agree that Bretons are basically humans, it would be irresponsible not to highlight their eleven ancestry in regards to their relations with Clan Direnni. Clearly they are distinguished by better magic usage, for example, which is passed down from their eleven ancestry. Solomon1972 (talk) 20:10, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

There are plenty of arguments against the rules specified by the racial phylogeny in lore, both old and new, and saying that each is the race of their mother is plainly incorrect. That said indeed perhaps term hybrid is not perfect, but they certainly do have some elven traits, and used to have more in ancient times.Tyrvarion (talk) 20:14, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

To clarify, the "children inherit the race of their mother" factoid is from unreliable Imperial research and has been regularly disproven, see Aeliah Remnus or an infant in The Lost Fort Faleria inheriting elven ears from his half-elven father. That being said, hybrid is not the correct term as it pertains to having two parents of different species (50/50), and most Bretons have a varying mix of human and elf ancestry after generations of cross-breeding. I've since changed the wording on the page. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 20:49, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Don't forget Lord Bacaro Volorus, who has a Breton mother and Imperial father, but physically looks like an Imperial. Went ahead and reverted Rim's edit with a citation as Leamon Tuttle (the Loremaster at the time) referred to them as a hybrid race. In universe, the term is also used for them. Zebendal (talk) 21:07, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Still not a big fan of the term hybrid being used because of its implications in biology, whereas "mixed" is a much broader term that accurately works well in context, but I'm indifferent to which one we use anyway. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 01:02, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

"Saint" Eleidon

I've moved Eleidon out of the saint section. The source for his sainthood is a username from a Loremaster's Archive Q&A. Following the logic of the recent discussion on removing the UOL note from Lore:Scenarist Guild, I can't see a good reason to recategorise on this page. There's already a note on Lore:Eleidon that mentions it. —⁠Legoless (talk) 00:11, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Yea I can maybe see a note about the Knightly Order on Eleidon's page (given the user is addressed in the body of Azandar's response) but this evidence is too flimsy to list him as a saint. I would just keep him in Revered Heroes. The Rim of the Sky (talk) 01:02, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Glenumbrans

As far as I can find, this term is only used to refer to animals, never a subculture of Bretons. Mindtrait0r (talk) 16:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Which source only refers to animals as Glenumbrans btw? --KevinM^(talk) 17:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Online:King's Guard Ram and Online:Kinlady Ilunsare are the only two sources I can find which use the term "Glenumbran" and both refer to animals, a ram and terrier respectively. The term "Glenumbrans" pops up with no results other than this page. I don't necessarily doubt that people from Glenumbra can be called Glenumbran as a general demonym, but I don't think we should be listing them as such in their own heading section subculture without a definitive reference to that group of people under that name. Mindtrait0r (talk) 18:12, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

So, what you're basically saying is to remove the Glenumbrans section for now, since no reference to that demonym can be found at this time, but later, when there is a reference, re-add all the information back into the article? --KevinM^(talk) 00:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I had grouped that information into that section as it was a big block of text previously that was about the people of the Glenumbra region. Removing the Glenumbrans section would be a disservice, as the book Glenumbra's People makes it clear that that there are various subcultures that appear in the region. The term is mainly used to indicate something originates from the region, and "Glenumbran rams" doesn't capitalize the ram part of the name. We can instead go with Glenumbra's People like the book title, but that sounds awkward.Analeah Oaksong (talk) 00:49, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Analeah --KevinM^(talk) 01:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't hate the title remaining Glenumbrans, but I do disagree with it being used in the navbox. I do realize that conversation is better suited for the template's talk page but the restoration of that term was cited by this page's usage of the term in the heading which is why I brought it here. Mindtrait0r (talk) 01:53, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Generally speaking, as a manner of English, a demonym being used for animals isn't generally different from one used for people in the same area. As a note, there is also reference to Glenumbran apples in the files. Usage of Glenumbran in the template is probably also preferred for brevity reasons over something like Glenumbra's people. Jeancey (talk) 15:53, 30 September 2024 (UTC)